I have a marked fondness for podcasts that don’t tell me stories I already know and lately I’ve been binging on non-American podcasts like this gem from down under. I haven’t known any of the crimes they have presented. . They don’t have a website, but they do have previous experience. Casey and Samantha previously hosted Just Another Murder Podcast which had a completely different format that was more humorous.
True Crime Story Time plays it straight. Unlike most podcasts with dual hosts, there is no banter. It’s a scripted show, but where this podcast shines is in the rich detail and exceptional narrative. They really do their research and both women have a gift for storytelling. They may be serious, but they aren’t boring. They trade off on the script, going back and forth without break. Because they are pros, the production quality is top notch.
Although the themes are mature, there is no strong language and I love the accents which help remind me that I’m not in Texas anymore. There is no padding which keeps the podcasts down around the thirty minute mark which is perfect for a lunch hour listen.
In particular, Darcey’s Story, Bonus Episode 3 really got to me. The story was horrifying and compelling. I might have cried a little and I am not a crier unless there is a dog involved, but that one really got me.
So, if you like serious, scripted true crime like Casefile or Minds of Madness, this is a great, shorter-length podcast.
In the northeast corner of Tarrant County, tucked at the end of a rough roadway, there is a field of crosses, each cross remembering a life stolen by violent crime. Hours of labor have transformed that weed-choked field into Our Garden of Angels, a place of peace and remembrance with paths, benches, and a gurgling waterfall. Families gather there occasionally, just to be in a calm place where they don’t have to shoulder the burden of grief alone. There, they are among those who truly understand.
This unique memorial for murder victims began with a single cross to remember a beautiful, young woman named Amy Robinson.
Nineteen year old Amy Robinson had dreams of going to college and becoming a teacher, but that hope was far away. She was doing well learning to live on her own and hold a job. Amy had been born with Turner’s syndrome, a chromosomal disorder which inhibits physical and mental growth. She was extremely petite, only four feet five inches and she had the mental capacity of a 14 year old. But she was learning how to live on her own and every day she rode her bicycle to her job sacking groceries for Kroger in Arlington, Texas. Amy was sweet and trusting. She was very social and didn’t like to be alone and had no reason to be suspicious when two of her co-workers stopped to offer her a ride on her way to work one day.
Robert Neville, Jr. and Michael Hall had both been fired by Kroger, but Amy didn’t know that. Two hours after she was supposed to be at work, her supervisor called to say Amy had never arrived. Alarmed, her family called police immediately. Police spoke with current and former co-workers. Neville admitted knowing her and even meeting her socially, but he denied having seen her in months.
Neville was someone Amy would never have trusted if only she’d known his background. He had prior convictions for burglary and had only been out of prison for 8 months. As a juvenile, he had been prosecuted for molesting younger children including an 11 year old girl, a 9 year old boy, and a 7 year old boy. He also had a history of abusing animals. When Neville was 14, he threw kittens off a roof. Two years later he tied a cat to a tree by its tail and repeatedly hit the cat with a pole. He had been fired for ridiculing a mentally challenged co-worker and had refused to sack groceries for minority shoppers. He had a fascination with white supremacy. That was the tie that bound Neville and Hall together.
Hall also didn’t like people of color. He was a follower, not a leader, and he was happy to let Neville take the lead. As they were drinking at a house belonging to Neville’s grandmother, Neville mentioned how he would like to go “just go out and kill somebody.” Hall suggested they purchase guns. They bought a pair of .22 caliber rifles and practiced shooting. They formed a plan to be serial killers and selected their first victim, a mentally impaired black man whom they worked with. Neville would later claim in a Fort Worth Star-Telegram interview that they had “a bet to see who could shoot and kill the most people between the two of us.” They particularly wanted to kill “blacks or Mexicans—anybody as long as they weren’t our color.”
On February 15, 1998, the duo made a decision. Upon checking the work schedules, they learned the black coworker wasn’t going to be at work that day, but Amy would be and she was part Native American. They found her riding her bike to work and offered her a ride which she accepted. These weren’t strangers to her and she didn’t know they had been fired. They promised her that they were going to take a ride and then they would drop her off. Instead of taking her to work, they drove her to a field in the Northeast corner of Tarrant County, an isolated place tucked off a rough, pitted road. Amy worried she would be late for work.
Neville stopped at the field, pretending to have a flat tire. Neville and Hall took their weapons out into the field while Amy sat in the car listening to the radio until Hall came back. He convinced her that she needed to go talk to Neville, that he was waiting for her over by a tree. Neville was waiting for Amy, and he was armed with a crossbow. He shot at her several times, grazing her hair with an arrow. She fled for the car but Hall shot her with a pellet gun in the leg. She cried from the pain as he began peppering her with pellets. Neville then brought up the .22 caliber rifle. They took turns shooting Amy. Neville shot her in the chest with the rifle and Hall shot her in the chest multiple times with the pellet gun.
She went to the ground, shaking and crying, then she called Neville by name. It was the last thing Amy would ever say. The pair became worried someone would overhear them so Neville shot Amy in the head to finish her. They had maneuvered her back into the field where she wouldn’t be readily visible from the road. They abandoned her body and left her bicycle with her.
Meanwhile, Amy’s family and friends were frantically looking for her. Her face stayed on the nightly news. It occurred to Hall and Neville that they might have missed a chance to rob Amy, so they went back to her body and took the small amount of cash from her pocket. They then used her body for target practice.
As so many narcissists do, Hall just had to brag about what they had done. He told his step-brother who went to the Arlington police. As police focused on Neville and Hall, they made for the border, but were arrested in Eagle Pass trying to cross into Mexico on March 3rd. Once detained, both men spent a lot of time boasting to reporters and investigators. They openly laughed about torturing Amy. Hall went so far as to imitate the sounds she was make and act out his shooting of her. He described how she begged to live, but died with Robert Neville’s name on her lips.
Robert Neville, Jr.
The interviews would come back to haunt them. Both men claimed diminished mental capacity as a defense, but the juries saw the videos of them laughing it up about torturing and killing Amy. The described her as “easy prey” and talked about how they wanted to be serial killers. Hall specifically mentioned that they chose Amy “because I didn’t have to put bruises on her to get her in the car.” He bragged about being the one to convince Amy that she was safe with them and even getting her to leave the car and walk over to Neville. He said she might have gotten away if he hadn’t been there to help Neville. Asked if he had any remorse, on the Fox 4 video that was played, he laughed and said “I wouldn’t want to be her. She had to take a lot of pain.” The juries sentenced both men to death.
Amy’s grandmother, Carolyn Barker wasn’t satisfied. For her, the media was too focused on the perpetrators and not on the victim. It seemed to her that Hall and Neville wanted to be famous. Every time the murder was covered, she had to look at their faces, hear their words, listen to everyone talk about their upbringings and mental status. What about Amy? Amy was the one who should be remembered.
Carolyn went to find the place in the weed-choked field where Amy had died. She says that part of her Native American beliefs are that a person’s spirit separates from the body and ascends to the afterlife at the place of death and that place becomes sacred. She marked that sacred spot with a cross. Amy had never liked being alone, and when other families in a grief support group expressed interest, she encouraged them to place their crosses beside Amy’s. This was no ordinary support group, but Families of Murdered Victims, and from there the unique memorial to crime victims was born.
Neville was executed February 8, 2006. Hall was executed February 15, 2011, thirteen years to the day from when he murdered Amy Robinson. Although it was financially and emotionally draining, Amy’s mother and sisters made the journey to see the executions. Her grandmother Carolyn did not, choosing instead to celebrate Amy’s life among her fellow angels. Her mother Tina said that she needed to see their final justice for herself. Both men expressed regret and apologized to the families.
Neville claimed to have become a Christian and told them he would see Amy on the other side and apologize to her and tell her how much her family loved and missed her. Hall also claimed to have found Christianity and said he wished he could make things right. Amy’s sisters weren’t interested in forgiving him. Amanda expressed that she believed he was not remorseful but playing for cameras right to the end. Ruth said she felt like a weight had been lifted from her and she was glad Hall died the same day Amy did. It felt right to her.
From the four original crosses, Amy’s field is now home to more than 160 crosses, tangible reminders of lives taken in violence. Carolyn Barker’s love for her granddaughter transformed her grief into something beautiful. She wanted Amy’s memory to live on and she has succeeded. The memorial has been named Our Garden of Angels. You can take a visual tour from their website and read more about some of the precious lives remembered there at http://ourgardenofangels.org/.
Hall v. State, 67 S.W.3d 870 (Tex.Crim.App. 2002). (Direct Appeal)
Hall v. Texas, 537 U.S. 802, 123 S.Ct. 70 (2002). (Remand)
Hall v. State, 160 S.W.3d 24 (Tex.Crim.App. 2004). (Direct Appeal After Remand)
Hall v. Quarterman, 534 F.3d 365 (5th Cir. 2008). (Habeas)
I spent 10 years in an Old Testament, Polygamist, Dooms Day Cult. If you want to learn more about the time I spent there, listen to the damn podcast! It was one hell of a ride and I soooooo look forward to telling all the grizzly details! Jump onboard, I promise you won’t be disappointed!!!!
That’s how Debby, one of the main hosts of “I Got the Hell Out” introduces herself and she does not lie. If you’re as fascinated with cults as I am, you won’t be disappointed at all. Her co-host is Laura. By day, Laura is a pharmacist, and by night, she’s a badass interviewer.
Laura leads Debby through aspects of her life in a doomsday cult. The unnamed cult is intriguing as the leader gradually twists recognizable fundamentalism into something more bizarre and oppressive. I learned about this podcast via Instagram before the first episode dropped and was immediately interested in the insider perspective of a cult.
Debby is flat out funny. She is like that one friend we all have who is irreverent, borderline crude, but so straightforward and honest that you simply must laugh with her. Laura does a great job of steering Debby back to topic and teasing out new facts. This could be a monologue, but Laura shapes it into a story. It’s hard to compare IGTHO to other podcasts because I can’t think of anyone else who has this sort of first person knowledge of their subject matter. Debby isn’t telling us about doomsday cults. She’s telling us about her life and it’s compelling.
The themes are mature and so is the language. This isn’t a podcast to put on with tender ears around, but that’s why God gave us headphones, right? Production values are good. There’s no distracting echo or background noises. There is some banter, but it’s minimal and related to the topic.
As a fun aspect, they invite listeners to send in their favorite alcoholic Kool-Aid beverage recipes and pick one to share each week so you can “drink the Kool-Aid” along with them.
If you want to give them a try, start at the beginning, because there is a story there. You will learn how Debby ended up in a cult, what kept her there, and just how she managed to get out. She’s one strong lady! You can find them all over social medial. Just go to the website igotthehellout.com and check out the links. You can email questions and Debby does her best to incorporate those into the show. They also have links to multiple interviews so have a listen and get to know Laura and Debby a bit better.
Cowtown Crime Verdict: Drink the Kool-Aid. It’s good for you.
It’s easy to fall into the habit of thinking of the criminal justice system as a conglomerate being, a monolithic entity, a machine chewing up lives and spitting out justice. We have a visceral reaction to the idea of an impersonal system controlling our lives. Too often, we fail to realize is that just as a machine is made of parts, a system is made of people. Judges, police, prosecutors, defense lawyers, court clerks, jailers, bondsmen, are all just people. They are good people, bad people, parents with grown children and single millennials, they have dogs or maybe cats. You get the point. The system is just made up of people. People like me and people like Mark Hasse.
Mark Hasse dedicated his life to the pursuit of justice. He graduate from SMU Law School in 1981 and went straight to work for the Dallas District Attorney’s Office. Mark made a name for himself by taking on the toughest cases, specializing in organized crime. He left to go into private practice, working as a defense attorney but also moving into the areas of family law and aviation law. That last might seem like an odd fit, but Mark had a commercial pilot’s license. He loved flying and he loved planes. That love almost stole his life when he was critically injured in a 1995 plane crash. He also loved rescuing dogs. You might say Mark was married to the job. At least, there was never a spouse or kids in the picture, but he did have a large, loving family and he had nieces and nephews to spoil.
I doubt that was on his mind when he drove to work on January 31, 2013.
Criminal law had always held Mark’s heart. In 2010, he went back to work as a prosecutor, this time in Kaufman County. He moved there to work with newly elected District Attorney Mike McLelland as his Chief Felony Prosecutor. Kaufman County sits just east of Dallas. It’s mostly white and rural, and like so many similar places, the scourge of meth had sunk its teeth in deep. In recent years, Kaufman County experienced rapid growth as a bedroom community due to its proximity to Dallas, bringing with it big city problems. The meth trade in Texas is largely controlled by white supremacy gangs such as the Aryan Brotherhood and Aryan Circle. With Mark’s experience prosecuting organized crime, he was a natural fit for aggressively pursuing those groups and soon developed a reputation as a tough, no-nonsense guy, the kind of prosecutor the skinheads didn’t want to mess with.
I doubt his reputation was on his mind when he parked behind the Kaufman County Courthouse just after 9:00 am.
He was probably thinking about that day. He was probably thinking about dockets, and witness meetings, and evidence exchanges. He was probably so focused on the minutiae that make up a typical day in the life of a prosecutor that he didn’t notice the man with the gun until he was right there on top of him. According to witnesses Lenda Bush and Kelley Blaine, Mark was walking, briefcase in hand, towards the courthouse when a masked man dressed all in black ran up to him brandishing a gun. The man shoved Mark who reflexively shoved back. The man pressed the gun to his neck. Mark raised both hands and pleaded for his life as the man shot him eight times, then jumped into the passenger side of a waiting car that sped away. Lenda Bush, a former police officer turned lawyer, gave chase to the vehicle. She was so shocked that she had difficulty dialing 911 and trying to follow the car which ultimately got away. There was no license plate on the car. She returned to the scene and gave Mark CPR until the ambulance arrived. He wouldn’t survive the trip to the hospital.
It was a hit in broad daylight just feet away from the courthouse.
Shock waves radiated through-out the criminal justice community. I heard about it within hours. My husband saw the murder on the news and called to tell me someone was assassinating District Attorneys. A sheriff’s deputy walked me to my car that day.
Within a week, there was a safety meeting at my office. We were advised to vary our times for arriving and leaving. Some people carried mace or alarm whistles. We walked in groups and had investigators escorting us. Everyone was sure that the ABT ( Aryan Brotherhood Texas) had finally gotten Mark. Who else would commit such a brazen hit? Which of us would be next?
As Mark was laid to rest and his family created a memorial fund for the children of Kaufman County, a massive manhunt was underway. FBI, the Texas Rangers, the Department of Public Safety, and the local sheriff’s department were all called in.
District Attorney Mike McLelland came out to give a press conference. He spoke to reporters with tears in his eyes. “I hope the people who did this are watching, because we are very confident that we are going to find you. We’re going to pull you out of whatever hole you’re in. We’re going to bring you back and let the people of Kaufman County prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law.”
While everyone else was concerned with investigating the ABT, the local sheriff had another suspect in mind. He immediately went to interview a disgraced former Justice of the Peace, Eric Williams.
In 2012, Mark Hasse had prosecuted Williams for stealing computer equipment after he was caught on surveillance video taking the items. The incident cost Williams his political career and his legal one after his law license was suspended. Williams had been extremely angry and publically blamed Mark Hasse and Mike McLelland of a “political assassination.” He blamed them for ruining his life.
Williams removing equipment on surveillance
Williams answered the door with his arm in a sling and told Sheriff Byrnes that he’d recently had shoulder surgery. He had an alibi in his wife and, although suspicious, Byrnes had nothing else to tie Williams to the crime.
At the beginning of March, a member of the 211 Crew, a prison gang, shot and killed the director of the Colorado Bureau of Prison. It was a bold crime. He simply knocked on the front door and executed the man when he answered. The killer would die in a hail of bullets on the highway.
Our security measures at work tightened. They were coming for us. Everyone scrambled to hide our home addresses. We had frequent emails on how to keep safe. I know I looked over my shoulder when going to my car every night. There are reports that a Kaufman County judge had taken to wearing a bullet proof vest. McLelland went armed. It’s not paranoia if they’re really after you.
Mike McLelland and his wife Cynthia both had degrees in psychology. Cynthia told a friend that both were extremely concerned about Williams. They believed he was the type not to take humiliation well. Williams had been offered a plea to a misdemeanor for the thefts but he refused, confident he could represent himself and win. He was utterly humiliated by the felony conviction, even though he wasn’t sentenced to any jail time. Cynthia and Mark were both sure he was plotting some sort of revenge, even though he smiled to their faces. They had been worried even before the attacks started.
March 30, 2014, Cynthia answered a knock at the door. She would never have opened the door to Williams, but at seeing the policeman with a SWAT helmet on, she opened the door. Security had become a daily occurrence. But this was no police officer. Cynthia and Mike were shot repeatedly in extreme overkill. The first officer on the scene testified there was blood everywhere.
Investigators exit the home of Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland near Forney, Texas April 1, 2013. Authorities have launched a massive investigation into the weekend killings of McLelland and his wife, Cynthia, which occurred months after an assistant prosecutor was shot dead in the same county. REUTERS/Tim Sharp (UNITED STATES – Tags: CRIME LAW) – RTXY54D
Once again media descended on Kaufman County. Williams didn’t shy away from the attention. He rode out on his Segway to give interviews. He told Jack Douglas of CBS-KTVT
“My heart goes out to all the families that have been affected by this tragedy. And especially to the people that work at the court house. I worked there for several years while I was going to law school and so I know that it’s a tight-knit family – that this is devastating to them,”
All of this was said with his trademark smirk. He might not have been smiling if he’d known police were narrowing in on him. They knew he had lied about the shoulder surgery. He’d also made a serious miscalculation.
The day after the McLelland’s were murdered, a man sent an email to Crime Stoppers. The message began “Do we have your attention now?” The email went on to say that unless certain judges resigned, the killings would continue. The caller knew specific information about the crimes, including the type of ammunition used.
They had surveillance video of a white Crown Victoria driving through the neighborhood at the time of the crime. What they needed were direct links. They went to see Williams and were surprised when he invited them in. He was arrogant enough to let them see his guns and sights. The information they gained that day allowed them to obtain a search warrant.
They found the title to a white Crown Victoria, guns, and numbers written down by the phone. Those were the ID numbers assigned to the Crime Stoppers emailer. That is how anonymous call-ins work. Computer forensics would show that immediately after his conviction, Williams began stalking Mark Hasse. He was also the mysterious emailer.
Once the dominoes began falling, they didn’t stop. A friend of Eric Williams called in a tip about a storage facility. Williams had asked the friend to rent the facility for him, but didn’t want it in his name. They quickly obtained a search warrant for the storage facility and when them lifted the door to the unit, there was the white Crown Victoria. There was also enough guns, body armor, and crossbows to outfit a swat unit.
Williams was arrested and with him, his accomplice, the woman who had driven him the get-away car when he gunned down Mark Hasse and again for the McLellands, his wife, Kim Williams.
Kim Williams would be the star witness against her husband. She testified that she was addicted to pain killers and was under her husband’s influence, but that she was a willing participant. “His anger was my anger.” She believed everything he told her.
Although she was testifying without a plea agreement, Kim was hoping for mercy in her sentence. She testified about the planning and execution of the crimes in chilling detail. She told the courtroom that her husband had always talked about killing people who he felt were conspiring against him. When he was going to trial, he warned her that they would tell lies about him. In particular, he told her they would put up a woman named Janice Gray, a former court coordinator he had dated before Kim. Gray might be going to testify that he had threatened to kill her when they broke up, but he assured Kim it was a lie. She says she believed him. He also was extremely angry with Judge Glen Ashworth whom he blamed for leading prosecutors to Janice Gray.
Williams had a hit list. His first target was intended to be Judge Ashworth. According to Kim Williams, her husband has started making napalm and storing it in pickle jars. He also bought a crossbow. These items were among those recovered from the storage facility. The plan was to go to Ashworth’s house following the Super Bowl. Ashworth lived just down the street, so it would be easy to go in and shoot him with the crossbow. Williams was then going to gore out his stomach and fill it with the napalm.
But Williams switched gears abruptly. He decided to kill Hasse first. He wanted to make a statement and gun Mark Hasse down outside the courthouse in view of everyone. Kim testified they were both very excited that morning. Williams dressed all in black with a ghoul mask.
She detailed the crimes, describing all the while how excited and happy Williams was. He was living his fantasy. He had decided to impersonate a police officer when they went to the McLellands’ and modeled the outfit for her like he was walking a runway. She sat outside as it sounded like the shooting went on forever. When he ran back out to the car, he told her he had to shoot Cynthia and additional time because she was moaning. He couldn’t leave a living witness, so he shot her in the top of the head. They celebrated that night with steaks on the grill and Williams made ready for the next people on his list, Judge Ashworth and County Court at Law Judge Erleigh Wiley, another person Williams believed had wronged him.
Rather than get involved in arguing whether Williams was justified in being angry about his prosecution, the special prosecutors tried him on the case involving the most innocent victim, Cynthia McLelland. Her only crime was being married to Mike. She was a beloved mother, grandmother, and a respected psychiatric nurse.
The jury only took an hour and forty minutes to convict Williams of killing Cynthia. He was sentenced to death. Kim Williams later pled guilty and was sentenced to 40 years.
Perhaps the only thing more shocking to those of us who make up “the system” than the murder of own was the identity of the murderer. He was also one of our own. It’s true in investigating murders that the killer is usually someone the victim knows. It’s always the spouse, the roommate, the ex-boyfriend. We fear the stranger when we should instead be looking closer to the smiling assassin next to us.
Source Notes: I relied on the following sources. I highly recommend the CBS 48 hours and the Kaufman Herald which were my two primary sources.
All Crime No Cattle is a “conversational true crime podcast hosted by Texas natives Erin and Shea.” New episodes drop every Wednesday. Crime is bigger in Texas, y’all.
Ain’t that the truth? I’ve really enjoyed watching the evolution of this podcast. I met Shea and Erin through a MFM fan group. They were launching their podcast just as I was launching my blog. I only review podcasts that I really like, but I knew after episode 3 that this podcast was going to be a winner.
The banter works great because they are a real life couple and you just can’t fake the chemistry of two people who live together. Their style is Texas with just the right amount of twang. I don’t notice any accent at all to their voices, which naturally means they sound authentically Texan. For a new podcast, I haven’t noticed the technical struggles I hear with many start ups.
This podcast is in the same realm as My Favorite Murder, but a little more serious than say, It’s About Damn Crime Crime or Wine and Crime. It’s less serious than Casefile or Murderous Minors. I especially love the fact that I am learning about cases I don’t know well, or even at all. I’m pretty steeped in Texas crime, but I had never heard about the lynching of Allen Brooks in episode 3. If you are looking for a place to start, that’s an excellent episode to try out. I also enjoyed the recent Matamoras episode. I was a college student during the 80s Satanic Panic and the name “Matamoras” has long conjured images of murder and ritual but I’d never really heard the story.
I reached out to Shea and Erin for a brief interview.
1. First, tell me a bit about how you became interested in true crime. I love to hear about the genesis of a murderino.
E: I’ve been interested in true crime since I was a little kid watching Unsolved Mysteries and Dateline with my mom. In high school I admittedly became a little obsessed, reading any book I could get my hands on about serial killers or forensics. It became such a deep interest that in my first year of college I majored in psychology with the intent on becoming a criminal profiler for the FBI! I ended up going into anthropology but I never lost my true crime roots.
S: I’ve always had a casual interest in true crime, but I was a little overwhelmed at first after meeting Erin and realizing her deep fascination with the genre. Although I didn’t quite understand at first, her love of true crime rubbed off on me, especially after binging and discussing podcasts and tv shows like Serial, Making a Murderer, and Forensic Files. It fascinated me how much more there was to know and talk about.
2. When did you decided to start your own podcast? How did you go about making the idea a reality?
E: When we first really started listening to true crime podcasts we jokingly threw around the idea of making our own, as I think a lot of listeners do. After months of talking about it we started getting more serious about the idea, but it always seemed like a far-fetched goal. For me, the technical aspect of recording and figuring out the equipment that we needed was daunting so I assumed that our own podcast was just wishful thinking. But Shea really spent time learning and researching all about the behind-the-scenes aspects of podcasting and one day announced to me he had picked out all of our equipment and we were ready to go! That made everything a stark reality, and it was a bit scary. Yet everything else fell into place surprisingly easily.
S: I think we had been throwing the idea around for about a year. I kept going back to the idea of doing something creative with Erin that we were both passionate about and would bring out each of our talents. A podcast seemed like a natural fit. For months I did research on equipment, podcast hosting sites, and the do’s and don’ts of podcasting. I have previous experience as an audio technician and a musician and that knowledge really helped on the recording side of things. I knew Erin was an amazing writer and researcher and I could handle the technical end, but the clincher was we are best friends in real life who love talking about true crime. That’s what really made me believe we could make it work.
3. What do you think has been the biggest challenge? What’s your favorite part of podcasting?
E: We knew we wanted to do a conversational-style podcast with a bit of banter. We also knew that it would be intrinsically more difficult to cover serious cases while still maintaining any sort of witty repartee. That balance between covering these soul-crushing, devastating cases while still throwing a few jokes around has been delicate but I think we’re getting better with each episode. We also wanted to make a concentrated effort to present cases about people of color, members of the LGBTQ+ community, and other minorities, but the clear difference in media coverage and attention these types of cases have in our culture make many of these hard to research. Still, we’re continually trying our best to present diverse stories. My favorite part of our podcasting is the weeks where Shea presents the case he’s been working on so I get to lay back and listen to a story I don’t know much, or anything, about! It’s like being a part of the audience and it’s been a fun experience.
S: For me, it’s the editing. Since our podcast is about an hour long per episode, we have to edit out a lot of breaths, word fumbles, and other stupid mouth sounds. I also have to complete several steps to process the audio to make it sound as good as I can. It has turned into a second job, but one that I actually enjoy. What I have found to be the most helpful is designing a post-recording workflow to help with the consistency of the audio quality as well as save time. My favorite part of the podcasting experience is when we delve into interesting discussions which bring out details about a case that neither of us individually had considered. It’s neat to hear that kind of discussion happen organically with a case you’ve worked so hard to research.
4. Describe your creative process. How do you choose your subject and how do you divide up the work?
E: We each decide independently what cases we are going to cover. We try to find cases in a different part of Texas or a different time period in order to represent our state and our history as holistically as possible. We also have to make sure any subject we choose has enough information on the crime, investigation, prosecution, or other details in order to fill the hour time limit we have.
S: Like we say in the intro episode, it’s a weekly podcast where one of us is telling the other about a specific true crime case. We work pretty much independently from each other as far as the research and writing goes. This helps to get genuine reactions and conversations about the cases we cover. It also gives us each about a two week research period per episode. Additionally, we have the Lone Star Lunatic series episodes, which are much bigger or complicated cases involving serial killers or other major crimes. We research, write, and present those cases working together throughout the process because generally they are too much for one person to handle alone.
5. How have you found the podcast community? They seem like a pretty supportive group. Have you had people who helped?
E: The true crime podcast community has been so wonderfully supportive! We have made so many friends just on Twitter and Facebook with independent podcasters just like ourselves who are doing great work. I consider the community an awesome bonus to this entire experience.
S: We have had a great experience with the podcast community so far. Several podcasts larger than us promoted our show since the beginning, which has really helped our audience to steadily grow. We are always happy to do promotional support for other podcasts that we believe in.
6. What is your favorite episode so far and why?
E: My favorite episode so far was episode 3, the Lynching of Allen Brooks. The history and social issues at the turn of the 20th century were incredibly interesting to research in order to give context to the case. It is still so fascinating to me that a mass spectacle lynching in downtown Dallas has nearly been forgotten and I hope that we did a small part in helping tell Allen Brooks’ story.
S: My favorite episodes have been parts one and two of Robert Ben Rhoades, the
Truck Stop Killer. There are not many resources out there, if any, that fully tell the story of this serial killer from beginning to end. I’m so proud of the work we did in compiling this massive amount of information from multiple sources together into a cohesive story.
7. Tell me a little more about yourselves away from podcasting.
E: I love arts and crafts, board games, video games, and bad movies. We are really big nerds at heart. I have a master’s degree in anthropology and I focused on zooarcheology and bioarchaeology (the study of animal and human bones in archaeological contexts). Because of my studies I have a strong interest in bones and a passion for osteology. I actually collect and process animal bones that I find while out hiking to add to a comparative collection I’ve been amassing over the past couple of years. I know that might be a major red flag to those of us in the true crime community, but my love stems from a purely academic interest in bones and the information you can glean from them about an individual’s life. It’s actually pretty helpful in studying true crime since I know a decent amount about pathology, trauma, and the identification of human remains. We also have amazingly supportive friends and family and the two best dogs in the world.
S: I love being outdoors. You’ll often find me fishing, camping, or playing disc golf. We both are members of the archaeology societies in our county and state and we try to make it to as many archaeological field schools as we can every summer. If you follow us at all on social media it’s probably not surprising that our lives also revolve around our dogs, Nelson and Brienne.
I appreciate Shea and Erin’s empathy for victims and sensitivity in not sensationalizing cases. They don’t doctor the stories up with dramatic music. The best banter style podcasts are the ones that make you feel as if you’re sitting in a room listening to your friends chat and that’s exactly how All Crime No Cattle makes me feel. So if you like your crime with a Texas flair, this is a great podcast for you to try.
Tommy Ray Kneeland was an enthusiastic youth minister. He taught Sunday school and drove the church bus. He loved bowling and attending gospel concerts with his wife and two young children. But in his spare time? He also like to torture and murder young women. His little hobby came to a screeching halt in 1974 when of these young women survived.
Kneeland was born in Kermit, Texas in 1949. Kermit is the county seat of Winkler County in West Texas. It’s a typical Oil Boom city that flourished in the 50’s and 60’s. Tommy Ray Kneeland was born into this small, but thriving community. In 1970, he lived across the street from Nancy and Gene Mitchell and their twin three-year old daughters. Like so many people in Kermit, Kneeland’s family was heavily invested in the oil and gas industry.
September 15, 1970, Nancy Mitchell filled a prescription around 8 p.m. Her husband worked very late and she was often home alone in the evening. Shortly after arriving home from her trip to the pharmacy, she put the twins to bed and called her uncle. Her husband arrived home at 12:45 to find the children sleeping, but his wife gone. Her purse with cash and cigarettes was sitting there in easy view. The only thing missing was Nancy. Her clothing was found out on an isolated roadway. Her dress, underwear, bra, slip, and pantyhose were scattered, cut into pieces and shredded by a knife, but no blood.
June 4, 1971, less than a mile from the place her clothing was found, an oilfield worker found the badly decomposed body of a woman. Dental records confirmed this was the body of Nancy Mitchell. Determining a cause of death was difficult, but the medical examiner thought she had died of asphyxiation. Traces of plastic were also found. The location was an oil lease owned by Tommy Ray Kneeland’s father.
When Nancy Mitchell went missing, police had spoken to Tommy, but there was nothing to make them suspicious. He was a polite, well-groomed, church-going, young man. They barely even noticed when he moved to Euless immediately after the body was found. Meanwhile, Gene Mitchell was going through hell. Even though he had a rock solid alibi from having been at work, people looked at him funny. There were rumors that he had killed his wife. His three-year-old twins were too small to understand and cried inconsolably for their mother.
Euless, Texas in in the NE corner of Tarrant County. It’s the ‘E’ in the area known as HEB. Once in Euless, Kneeland found work as a carpet layer. He married a woman and they had two children. As always, he became very involved in a local church. Reverend Robert Owens of Hurst Christian Church was impressed with the enthusiastic youth minister and Sunday school teacher. He described Kneeland as outgoing and charismatic. The teens flocked to Kneeland who was so trusted he even drove the church bus.
A year after Kneeland moved to the DFW area, the bodies of two teens were found dead in Fort Worth. Friday, June 30, 1974, 17 year-old Jane Handy and 15 year-old Robert Gholson borrowed a 1961 white Ford Fairlaine from Jane’s father.
They told him they were headed to a party, but the pair really intended to drive all the way from Oklahoma to Dallas for a concert. It’s a three hour drive, but they didn’t get very far before the Fairlaine broke down near Ardmore, Oklahoma. The teens began hitchhiking. Both had run away before and weren’t afraid to brave the world on their own. Their first ride took them as far as Gainesville, Texas. That’s where they met Tommy Lee Kneeland. Kneeland often had to drive long distances for work. He told the kids he would take them to Hurst and that from there it would be easy to hitch a ride to Dallas. They happily climbed in with him.
Instead of taking them to Hurst, he drove them to a seclude area in the east of Fort Worth, a party spot for local bikers just off a popular trail. He bound their hands with wire coat hangers. Based on what we now know about his history, he always had a gun. I’m assuming this is how he was able to control two people. He wasn’t a large man, only standing 5 foot 7 with a slender build. Kneeland knocked Robert to the ground and began raping Jane. She fought for her life, thrashing and screaming for help. Frustrated, he tried to gag her, but then she got her hands free. She fought him hard. He pulled a knife and stabbed her six times in the chest and six times in the back. He then slashed her throat and in his fury began stabbing her face until it was obliterated.
He looked over where Robert had been laying, but the teenager was gone. He’d gotten to his feet and run for his life. Kneeland caught up with him on the tail and stabbed him just as he had Jane: six times in the back and six in the chest. He slit the boy’s throat, but didn’t take his rage out on his face.
The next morning, bikers found Robert’s body on the trail and called the police. It was only while searching the area for evidence that they located Jane. Because of the damage to her face, Jane wasn’t identified until police ran her prints. She hadn’t been reported missing yet due to her tendency to run away. It was after being picked up as a runaway that her prints ended up in the system.
Tarrant County Medical Examiner Felix Gwozdz described the wounds as extremely deep and violent, the result of an intense attack. Stranger attacks are the most difficult cases to solve and with no way to link the teens to Kneeland, the case went cold. It would remain that way until 1974.
April 23, 1974, 16 year-old Danita Cash went to pick up her brother near the old Arlington-Bedford Bridge which crosses a channel of the Trinity River. I’ve seen stories that her brother had gone there with friends for target practice and I’ve seen stories that the boys were fishing. Either way, Danita had gone to fetch her brother. The bridge is now closed, but in 1974, the area was heavily wooded and off the main path. Growing impatient with waiting, Danita honked her horn to get her brother’s attention. Like brothers so often do, he ignored her. A strange man responded, though and he asked if she needed help. She assured him she was fine and he left. She waited a bit for her brother, then honked again.
The man came back and this time he had a gun with him, a sawed-off, 12 gauge shotgun. He forced Danita to come with him, bound her hands with twisted wire and put carpet tape over her mouth. She desperately struggled to free herself. She kept trying to speak to him. He reached down to loosen the tape so he could hear what she had to say and that’s when he lost control of the truck. He veered off the road and into the mud. The man gunned his engine, but the wheels just dug in deeper. Incredibly, he let her go. He was afraid someone would stop to help and see Danita bound in his car. “Take off,” he told her. “I’ll kill you if you tell the police.”
She ran all the way back to her car and drove straight home to her mother who immediately called the police. The truck was gone by the time police made it to bridge, but they found a sanding disk of the type used by tile or carpet layers. It was believed the man had put it under a tire to get the traction needed to escape the mud. Danita had a good description of her kidnapper as well as his truck. He had a unique truck, a vintage 1957 pick-up with a distinctive toolbox. Soon police narrowed in on an unlikely suspect, a local youth minister and carpet layer. They put Kneeland’s picture in a photospread. Danita identified him easily.
In the stakeout that followed, police saw Kneeland ready his truck for painting. Kneeland realized he was being watched and called the police himself. He said he wanted to come in and “clear things up.” He came in to talk and soon confessed, not just to the kidnapping of Danita, either. He admitted to the unsolved murders of Jane Handy and Robert Gholson. Then he started talking about Nancy Mitchell from Kermit.
Kneeland admitting kidnapping his neighbor at gun point. He raped her, then put a plastic bag over her head to suffocate her, but she was taking too long to die. He tried injecting air into her arm, but Nancy stubbornly clung to life. Kneeland stabbed her repeatedly and slit her throat. He left her body on his father’s land and went back to life as normal.
Police were deeply suspicious that Kneeland was possibly responsible for the unsolved rape and murder of Benbrook teenager Carla Davis, but Kneeland never confessed to the crime and was never charged. The best break down of the Carla Davis case I’ve ever heard is the Texas-based podcast Gone Cold. It was this podcast where I first heard the name Tommy Ray Kneeland. I became fascinated with the story and began digging further. Episodes 4 and 5 break down the suspects. Episode 7 features an interview with Kneeland’s wife at around the 15 minute mark. I cannot recommend this series highly enough. Carla Davis deserves justice.
Kneeland’s wife insists that he never raised a hand against her. He was a good husband. She never worried when he was out that he would be unfaithful because he strongly disapproved of women who dressed provocatively or showed too much skin. He did come home frequently with blood on his clothes. She said he simply cut himself at work all the time and she washed the blood without thinking about it. Kneeland has been a suspect in many other murders around the area. Given the opportunistic nature of his crimes, I believe he committed other crimes out there which we will never link to him.
Everyone was shocked when Kneeland was placed under arrest. His father insisted that he was always a good boy. His pastor went to visit the young minister in jail and referred to him as “one frightened boy.” Kermit and Fort Worth are very far apart. Kneeland was arraigned for the Fort Worth murders and the kidnapping, but then had to be transported across the state to answer for his crime against Nancy Mitchell. Gene Mitchell was relieved to have the crime solved, but that didn’t undo the years of hell he and his daughters had endured.
In a plea agreement, Kneeland was sentenced to 10 years for kidnapping Danita Cash and two life sentences for the murders of Jane Handy and Robert Gholson. He was sent back to Kermit for trial there. Because of the publicity, the case was transferred to another county. The offense Kneeland committed against Nancy were all stacked: Kidnapping, murder, abuse of corpse. The prosecution, Winkler County DA Mike Fostel asked the jury to sentence Kneeland to 270 years. The jury sentenced him to 550 years.
In a perfect world, that’s where the story would end, with Kneeland in prison. But the 1970s and 80s there was a movement away from incarceration. Prisons were overflowing and to ease the crowding, prisoners were paroled at unprecedented rates. It made sense to release those serving steep sentences for drug and property crimes, but a predator? Anyone could get three for one good time. September 16, 1987, just 12 years and 9 months after he had been incarcerated, Tommy Ray Kneeland was paroled.
Mike Fostel was shocked. Due to a glitch, the parole notifications had gone to the county where the prosecution had been transferred and not Winkler or Tarrant Counties. They didn’t have the chance to object. During his brief incarceration, Kneeland had been up for parole three times.
Kermit didn’t want Kneeland to return there but that was fine, because the city of Hico was ready to welcome Kneeland with open arms. Some family or friends had started a petition there to help him get parole. A local pastor had written letter to parole board talking about how his family would welcome Kneeland and he had a place to stay. He later claimed he didn’t know what Kneeland was actually in prison for.
Kneeland re-married, this time to a woman with two children, was again active in church and started his own business. However in July 1994 he was stopped for expired registration and found to have two rifles in his truck including a loaded semi-auto under his seat. This was a violation of his parole.
Residents of Hico admitted to mixed feelings. Some insisted they were sure he was rehabilitated. They described him as a hard working family man, a good Christian. Of course, that’s how people described Kneeland before he started raping and killing. These people thought it too harsh to send Kneeland back to prison, but considering he was known to kidnap women at gunpoint, the violation is alarming. Other residents of Hico confessed to being relieved. Many said they didn’t know what he had been in prison for and were shocked.
Tommy Ray Kneeland is the classic example of how the appearances can deceive. Underneath the preacher man façade was a dark savagery only revealed by his terrible crimes. Thankfully, Kneeland is still housed in the Stiles Unit, never again to be released. The release of such dangerous men as Tommy Ray Kneeland and Kenneth McDuff caused Texas to once again overhaul parole laws, tightening them, but the moods of the public swing like a pendulum and I see a movement for compassion and rehabilitation. Those are lofty goals and while I agree with the sentiment, I hope we never again lose sight of the importance of keeping dangerous predators locked up.
Researching an older case can be challenging. Here are some of the places I located information.
Kneeland’s appeal can be read here. It is a subscription service but you can pay per report if you are interested enough.
The Gone Cold podcast was an in valuable resource and I highly recommend it. You can listen to it on iTunes, Stitcher, or whatever pod catcher you prefer.
Most of my other resources were difficult to locate and require a subscription to Newspapers.com . If you do have a subscription, the best coverage was the Odessa American.
Something’s Not Right was born in early 2017, when Thashana and Olivia started discussing the possibility of doing a long form podcast to explore a mysterious death. Finding information on that case proved more daunting than they thought, so they decided to set it aside and begin telling other stories.
The podcast premiered on March 6, 2017, and featured the story of the unsolved 1967 murder of 12-year-old Nashvillian, Kathy Jones. Thashana and Olivia were both able to quickly find information on a lot of murders both solved and unsolved in Nashville and other cities in Tennessee, but they knew that wouldn’t be the only topic they would cover.
Something’s Not Right has a heavy focus on true crime, but the show features other stories that are in some way strange, disturbing, or creepy. While the hosts favor stories in their home state of Tennessee, they are also branching out to tell listeners stories from other locations as well.
My Take: This podcast is firmly in the crime-comedy category with bantering hosts telling stories about true crime and ghosts. They also have “Little Somethings” which are minisodes where they answer fan questions about everything from movies to the paranormal. The hosts, Olivia Lind and Thashana McQuiston are a large part of the charm. Lind plays straight man to McQuiston’s comic foil, a part McQuiston is suited for with her husky, Southern twang.
Make no mistake, these ladies are performers and I’m not gonna lie, they make me laugh at inappropriate things on a regular basis. The show is very much in the vein of My Favorite Murder or Wine and Crime. There is a lot of profanity, so if the F-bomb bothers you, this is not the podcast for you. Their catch phrase is “Boners happen.” You were warned.
The production quality is decent. Sometimes McQuiston is participating over the phone and you can tell by the hollow sound. Fortunately, they don’t suffer a loss of chemistry, and remain audible even when not in the same room.
I’ve developed a fondness for regional crime podcasts. Too many of the national podcasts tend to tread the same soil. While I love a good serial killer discussion, some variety is a welcome change. Being based in Tennessee, the hosts are covering crimes which I’m not familiar with. Some of these cases are a wild ride in the way only redneck and hillbilly murders can make be. I say that as a proud redneck.
This isn’t one of those podcasts where you have to listen in any sort of order. If you want a taste, dive right in with episode 33, Paul Farrar to hear about an insane murder you’ll never forget. You can’t make that stuff up. From rednecks to blue bloods, this podcast covers it all. If you like your crime with a heavy dose of WTF, this is the podcast for you.